Magical Pro Teachings

**Scott** · 05-14-2009, 10:25 PM

here look at this big list of fake magic tricks :-
MAGIC FAKERS: Invisible Zone

The topic of Ethics in magic is a very subjective one, but there are, I believe, some very clear-cut issues.

For example, when you buy a magic trick, you are effectively buying the right to learn its secret and perform it. What you are not usually buying is the right to reveal that secret to anybody else.
It is generally considered not ethical to: -
make up your own version of a commercial magic trick without having first bought the original
"steal" somebody else's routine, presentation or patter without first asking for permission to use it
copy somebody else's Magic Video.

The issue of Ethics also applies, unfortunately, to some Magic Dealers (although not, I hope, to the ones listed on this site). If you do see a Magic Dealer selling a "ripped off" item, you should really refuse to buy it, even if it might be cheaper than the original, and, if possible, you should contact the person who does own the rights to that item to let them know you might have spotted a "pirate" copy.
Some Magic Clubs, such as The Magic Circle, even have an Ethics Committee specifically created to address such matters.

I mean look at this Dvd by Laurence Miller called Bicycleman Magic :-
Bicycleman Magic DVD Laurence Miller bicycleman.net

now this guy takes the buiscut, just have a read

heres the front cover i think of the dvd :-

Only 6 of the 24 moves advertised on the Bicycleman DVD preview video clip are actually taught on the DVD (denoted below with an asterisk).
Deck Spine
* Fan
* One Handed Revolution .v2
Deck Toss
Worm Cut
* M5
Korn
Plank Double
Hover Change
Ice
Dealing Bottoms
Cover Pass
* Pull Back Pass
Ace Production
False Sible
One Handed Pharaoh
Laurence Miller's Bicycle Cut
Deck Flip
Muscle Pass
One Handed Fan
* Reverse Revolution
Table Snap
* Classic Pass
Spring

so i guess its a case of avoid this Dvd like the plague

**Buzz Light Year** · 05-15-2009, 01:47 AM

Yup Pubtricks def a site i wont go to. Way to go Pinky-
Stand as one You have nothing
Stand as a community You have the edge
Stand With Buzz on your side your the winner.

Lets stick it to em

YouTube - rei leao

crazzzy · 05-15-2009, 04:12 AM

I think if he has author rights its ilegal to sell the same method without his aproval, even if you have independantly came up with the method is he published it first you have no right to publish yours !

**pinky** · 05-18-2009, 07:18 PM

One of us is in error.
It appears that David feels his business is under attack. I am not attacking him, or his business. I AM questioning his ethics, and legal standing.
Perhaps one of us in GB might make a phone call to see if, in fact, the lawyers have been retained by him.
May be legit,, may be more bluff.
My OPINION is that he is just another businessman who cares nothing about the Magic Community.
It's just a way to make money.
I will give him none of my business.
You will choose as you see fit where to spend your money for magic.

The following is the email conversation I have had with pubtricks recently, starting with the oldest at the bottom of this posting.

"Hello Pinky,

Sorry to inform you that you are incorrect about copyright law. You are more than welcome to discuss this with my lawyer.

Needham and James LLP, Stratford Upon Avon, England.
Tel: 0845 630 8833
Fax: 0845 630 8844

I removed Vision as a good will jesture. However, push me too hard and it will go back online. I know the law as I have had taken legal action on copyright in the past. So "bluffs" are not going to work with me. As I said:

"People can work with me".

This is the law:
1. You need a patent
2. You need a trademark
3. You need breach of a non disclosure agreement
4. You need a raw media copyright infringement

Coming back to me with more pointless remarks is a waste of your time as I will delete them. As I said I know this position to the smallest detail. I have also taken action against companies who threaten action with no stature in law. This is harassement and is a serious offence.

This subject is now closed.

Regards,

David - Magic tricks

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pinky"
To: "Pubtricks.com"
Cc: "Lee Asher" ;
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Removal of products

It is good that you took "Vision" off line.
Why did you allow it to remain up for sale when you had already
indicated you intended to remove it? Advised against admitting
wrongdoing?
l

With respect to item "1" below, the "creator"/copyright holder is
under NO obligation whatsoever to furnish you with any materials
other than evidence of their copyright to the material in question.
They have no duty/obligation/requirement in providing you with ANY
"replacement set of videos for the site" whatsoever. YOU DO have the
obligation to remove the material from your site; YOU DO NOT have any
standing in requiring the legitimate claimant to furnish you with ANY
replacement material. Further, there is a significant disincentive
for authors of effects, the "secret" to which is what the rights
holder may license, to release to you any such secret information
given your established track record of failing to observe authors'
rights.
It is YOUR DUTY to remunerate the copyright holder for any INCOME
(not profit) that resulted from the sale, inadvertent or intentional,
of the copyrighted material.

As to your assertion that "A magic trick simply has no copyright" it
appears that you have a fundamental misunderstanding, in the context
of selling/distributing an effect, about what a copyright is, or
requires to be established.

10 Big Myths about copyright explained

This should help clear up some of your misunderstanding.

You assert that you are "the world leading magic download site".
Good for you.
The Magic community will likely expect you to conduct business
consistent with being a world leader.
It appears you have more work to do in that regard.
Removing "Vision" was a first step; now consider better vetting the
effects you continue to sell.
The copied/derivative version of Lee Asher's "The Asher Twist"
continues to appear on your site, to the best of my knowledge,
against the wishes of Mr Asher.

Sincerely,

pinky

On May 18, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Pubtricks.com wrote:

Hello Pinky,

Vision is now offline as I promised. You may have got a cached
version of the site. Reload the browser.

However I'm 100% with in the law and this is my policy to people who
feel their original creation is online with Pubtricks.com

1. Any person who can prove they are the creator is welcome to film a
replacement set of videos for the site. If the videos are of a lower
quality than the current ones then the creator can come to some deal
with the other magician.

2. Any person who thinks a copyright has been broken can serve a DMCA
notice. BUT please ensure you know what this is as incorrect
information will result in a legal prosecution. This basically means
if a trademark, patent or raw footage copyright breach.

A magic trick simply has no copyright. I have this statement in
writting from the US government and also my companies UK lawyers say
the same. Pubtricks.com is the world leading magic download site and
is the ideal location for existing magicians to sell their work or
for new magicans to get discovered. I welcome people to work with me.

Regards,

David - Magic tricks

PS. I will be making a page to clearly state this for all to read.
However I will miss out the "magic has no copyright" or 1000s of
copycat sites will spring up in months.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pinky"
To: "Pubtricks.com"
Cc: "Lee Asher" ;
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:31 PM
Subject: Removal of products

PubTricks:

You continue to sell items for which you do not have Original
Author's permission.
"Vision" for which you have issued a mass email announcement of
"We're going to stop selling it Monday" is a product that Nicholas
Uusi has been shopping around. It was posted and PULLED from Nathan
Kranzo's site when Nathan was sent a note by the originator.
From Nathan Kranzo: "Yup Its PUNCTURED by Ben Morris"; Nathan had
already informed Nicholas, and it appears that you too have been made
aware of this.
It is Monday, and the product is still available for sale.
Keep your word, honor the originator and pull it immediately from
your site.
Also, you continue to offer for sale "Twisted". I had been told that
Lee Asher would be sending you a cease and desist notice last week.

You are doing a DIS-service to the magic community by promoting
copies of works that are not yours to sell.
If perhaps the individuals who sell through your site are simply
ignorant of the prior published works, then let them know.
If they are simply too lazy to research an effect before they claim
rights to it, let them know.
In either case, you are involved in bad business. Remove the items
for which you have ANY questions, and do YOUR OWN due diligence.

Keep Your Word.

pinky

**Buzz Light Year** · 05-18-2009, 07:35 PM

Is this True Does Magic Have No Copyright??? Does anyone apart from Dave have this in writing?

Buzz.

crazzzy · 05-19-2009, 04:14 AM

I just hate people like that, for them its all about making money :@
and I think he isnt correct about that magic has no copyright I think you can get author rights but Im not 100 % about that

**pinky** · 05-19-2009, 04:32 AM

To his credit, he is not simply exposing secrets to the "Magi-curious".
Also, he is one of the few outlets for independently selling effects for which you DO hold rightful claim of authorship/copyright/trademark.
Seems like many peeps are so overjoyed with the notion that they have created the wheel that they fail to do their due diligence. "I made this" seems to trump need to find out if, in fact, someone had made it previously.

Slydini did his "Untying Silks" with white silks. Doing the same effect with red silks does not give you any claim to having created it, or for having created a "new" effect.

**Buzz Light Year** · 05-19-2009, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinky

To his credit, he is not simply exposing secrets to the "Magi-curious".
Also, he is one of the few outlets for independently selling effects for which you DO hold rightful claim of authorship/copyright/trademark.
Seems like many peeps are so overjoyed with the notion that they have created the wheel that they fail to do their due diligence. "I made this" seems to trump need to find out if, in fact, someone had made it previously.

Slydini did his "Untying Silks" with white silks. Doing the same effect with red silks does not give you any claim to having created it, or for having created a "new" effect.

What about blue silks- Does that Count????

Buzz

Talixxo · 05-19-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz Light Year

What about blue silks- Does that Count????

Buzz

Only on tuesdays.

nicholas1uusi · 06-16-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinky

I apologize if I misunderstand your English.
If you are asking how you can know if you have created an original effect or sleight, then the answer would be: research it.
There is much available on the internet that you can use for reference. No excuse not to try.
Read books (which may be difficult because of language or availability).
Ask other Magicians...link them to your effect and ask if they have seen anything like it...and who did it.
Then, follow-up and research more.

If, you get a notice that someone has already published it, then consider the idea that they have already established THEIR right to it.

One of our users here had an effect that was listed on Nathan Kranzo's site.
Nathan was contacted by the originator/rights holder of the effect, and Nathan immediately removed the version from his site.

I do not understand clearly the other part of your message.
If you are asking if I think it is fair if YOU post an effect you think you have created on YouTube, and SOMEBODY ELSE sells it the next week, then No, it is not fair!

Be realistic. Magic has been around for a lot longer than any one of us has been alive. Much has been already created. Compared to what has already been invented, the percentage of NEW ideas is small.
YES, new ideas are always springing up. But you must be prepared to hear that even though you came up with an idea by yourself, and it looks new to YOU and your friends, it could be that many other people also came up with the same idea, and the First creator of an effect may be someone who lived a hundred years ago.

In a rush to publish and profit from an idea, don't get lazy: DO RESEARCH; and if someone else is already marketing it, it is not fair to THEM for you to take money from them.

If you think that *I* am the only one who cares, you are seriously mistaken.
I do understand about people being defensive about what they think "they" own/created/etc. and that defensiveness does not excuse anything, once they have been shown that they were, in fact, not the first one to claim rights to an idea.

If you want to perform magic, then do what performers do.
If you want to come up with and sell new ideas, then you need to do what is expected for that, and part of that is to immerse yourself in the history of your interest, and make sure you are not wasting time re-inventing the wheel.
There is no quick or easy solution.

And MANY people care.

pax maximus,

pinky

HI, yes that is true, although the trick was deleted from pubtricks because I told him to. Right after that, he posted an information page about magic copyright, and that no more tricks can be deleted because of originality, so please don't think I've had any intentions about selling some others work!

/Nicholas

05-14-2009, 10:25 PM	#11
Scott Administrator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Male - 40 Posts: 1,717 Chats: 3079 Nominated 5 Times in 5 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 2 Feedback Score: 3 reviews Prefered Magic & Style: Closeup-Parlour-Walkabout-Street How Long You Been Practising The Art: To Many Years, But Its Been Great Ride Who Inspired You To Learn Magic: Michael Ammar-Daryl-Greg Wilson Whats Your Work Horse Affect: ACR-Spongeballs Whats Your Personal Favourite Affect: Silk To Rose-Muscle Pass View my Threads in Some Details: »	here look at this big list of fake magic tricks :- MAGIC FAKERS: Invisible Zone The topic of Ethics in magic is a very subjective one, but there are, I believe, some very clear-cut issues. For example, when you buy a magic trick, you are effectively buying the right to learn its secret and perform it. What you are not usually buying is the right to reveal that secret to anybody else. It is generally considered not ethical to: - make up your own version of a commercial magic trick without having first bought the original "steal" somebody else's routine, presentation or patter without first asking for permission to use it copy somebody else's Magic Video. The issue of Ethics also applies, unfortunately, to some Magic Dealers (although not, I hope, to the ones listed on this site). If you do see a Magic Dealer selling a "ripped off" item, you should really refuse to buy it, even if it might be cheaper than the original, and, if possible, you should contact the person who does own the rights to that item to let them know you might have spotted a "pirate" copy. Some Magic Clubs, such as The Magic Circle, even have an Ethics Committee specifically created to address such matters. I mean look at this Dvd by Laurence Miller called Bicycleman Magic :- Bicycleman Magic DVD Laurence Miller bicycleman.net now this guy takes the buiscut, just have a read heres the front cover i think of the dvd :- Only 6 of the 24 moves advertised on the Bicycleman DVD preview video clip are actually taught on the DVD (denoted below with an asterisk). Deck Spine * Fan * One Handed Revolution .v2 Deck Toss Worm Cut * M5 Korn Plank Double Hover Change Ice Dealing Bottoms Cover Pass * Pull Back Pass Ace Production False Sible One Handed Pharaoh Laurence Miller's Bicycle Cut Deck Flip Muscle Pass One Handed Fan * Reverse Revolution Table Snap * Classic Pass Spring so i guess its a case of avoid this Dvd like the plague __________________

05-15-2009, 01:47 AM	#12
Buzz Light Year Regular Forum Poster Top Hat Magician Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 35 Chats: 19 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews View my Threads in Some Details: »	Yup Pubtricks def a site i wont go to. Way to go Pinky- Stand as one You have nothing Stand as a community You have the edge Stand With Buzz on your side your the winner. Lets stick it to em YouTube - rei leao __________________ http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9...cebaycopy1.gif

05-18-2009, 07:18 PM	#14
pinky Appreciated MPT Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: laboratory cage Posts: 434 Blog Entries: 4 Chats: 347 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews Prefered Magic & Style: Cheesy Magic (Cheddar) How Long You Been Practising The Art: We're supposed to practice? View my Threads in Some Details: »	The "Final Word" from pubtricks One of us is in error. It appears that David feels his business is under attack. I am not attacking him, or his business. I AM questioning his ethics, and legal standing. Perhaps one of us in GB might make a phone call to see if, in fact, the lawyers have been retained by him. May be legit,, may be more bluff. My OPINION is that he is just another businessman who cares nothing about the Magic Community. It's just a way to make money. I will give him none of my business. You will choose as you see fit where to spend your money for magic. The following is the email conversation I have had with pubtricks recently, starting with the oldest at the bottom of this posting. "Hello Pinky, Sorry to inform you that you are incorrect about copyright law. You are more than welcome to discuss this with my lawyer. Needham and James LLP, Stratford Upon Avon, England. Tel: 0845 630 8833 Fax: 0845 630 8844 I removed Vision as a good will jesture. However, push me too hard and it will go back online. I know the law as I have had taken legal action on copyright in the past. So "bluffs" are not going to work with me. As I said: "People can work with me". This is the law: 1. You need a patent 2. You need a trademark 3. You need breach of a non disclosure agreement 4. You need a raw media copyright infringement Coming back to me with more pointless remarks is a waste of your time as I will delete them. As I said I know this position to the smallest detail. I have also taken action against companies who threaten action with no stature in law. This is harassement and is a serious offence. This subject is now closed. Regards, David - Magic tricks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pinky" To: "Pubtricks.com" Cc: "Lee Asher" ; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Removal of products It is good that you took "Vision" off line. Why did you allow it to remain up for sale when you had already indicated you intended to remove it? Advised against admitting wrongdoing? l With respect to item "1" below, the "creator"/copyright holder is under NO obligation whatsoever to furnish you with any materials other than evidence of their copyright to the material in question. They have no duty/obligation/requirement in providing you with ANY "replacement set of videos for the site" whatsoever. YOU DO have the obligation to remove the material from your site; YOU DO NOT have any standing in requiring the legitimate claimant to furnish you with ANY replacement material. Further, there is a significant disincentive for authors of effects, the "secret" to which is what the rights holder may license, to release to you any such secret information given your established track record of failing to observe authors' rights. It is YOUR DUTY to remunerate the copyright holder for any INCOME (not profit) that resulted from the sale, inadvertent or intentional, of the copyrighted material. As to your assertion that "A magic trick simply has no copyright" it appears that you have a fundamental misunderstanding, in the context of selling/distributing an effect, about what a copyright is, or requires to be established. 10 Big Myths about copyright explained This should help clear up some of your misunderstanding. You assert that you are "the world leading magic download site". Good for you. The Magic community will likely expect you to conduct business consistent with being a world leader. It appears you have more work to do in that regard. Removing "Vision" was a first step; now consider better vetting the effects you continue to sell. The copied/derivative version of Lee Asher's "The Asher Twist" continues to appear on your site, to the best of my knowledge, against the wishes of Mr Asher. Sincerely, pinky On May 18, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Pubtricks.com wrote: Hello Pinky, Vision is now offline as I promised. You may have got a cached version of the site. Reload the browser. However I'm 100% with in the law and this is my policy to people who feel their original creation is online with Pubtricks.com 1. Any person who can prove they are the creator is welcome to film a replacement set of videos for the site. If the videos are of a lower quality than the current ones then the creator can come to some deal with the other magician. 2. Any person who thinks a copyright has been broken can serve a DMCA notice. BUT please ensure you know what this is as incorrect information will result in a legal prosecution. This basically means if a trademark, patent or raw footage copyright breach. A magic trick simply has no copyright. I have this statement in writting from the US government and also my companies UK lawyers say the same. Pubtricks.com is the world leading magic download site and is the ideal location for existing magicians to sell their work or for new magicans to get discovered. I welcome people to work with me. Regards, David - Magic tricks PS. I will be making a page to clearly state this for all to read. However I will miss out the "magic has no copyright" or 1000s of copycat sites will spring up in months. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pinky" To: "Pubtricks.com" Cc: "Lee Asher" ; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:31 PM Subject: Removal of products PubTricks: You continue to sell items for which you do not have Original Author's permission. "Vision" for which you have issued a mass email announcement of "We're going to stop selling it Monday" is a product that Nicholas Uusi has been shopping around. It was posted and PULLED from Nathan Kranzo's site when Nathan was sent a note by the originator. From Nathan Kranzo: "Yup Its PUNCTURED by Ben Morris"; Nathan had already informed Nicholas, and it appears that you too have been made aware of this. It is Monday, and the product is still available for sale. Keep your word, honor the originator and pull it immediately from your site. Also, you continue to offer for sale "Twisted". I had been told that Lee Asher would be sending you a cease and desist notice last week. You are doing a DIS-service to the magic community by promoting copies of works that are not yours to sell. If perhaps the individuals who sell through your site are simply ignorant of the prior published works, then let them know. If they are simply too lazy to research an effect before they claim rights to it, let them know. In either case, you are involved in bad business. Remove the items for which you have ANY questions, and do YOUR OWN due diligence. Keep Your Word. pinky __________________

05-18-2009, 07:35 PM	#15
Buzz Light Year Regular Forum Poster Top Hat Magician Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 35 Chats: 19 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews View my Threads in Some Details: »	Is this True Does Magic Have No Copyright??? Does anyone apart from Dave have this in writing? Buzz. __________________ http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9...cebaycopy1.gif

05-19-2009, 04:32 AM	#17
pinky Appreciated MPT Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: laboratory cage Posts: 434 Blog Entries: 4 Chats: 347 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews Prefered Magic & Style: Cheesy Magic (Cheddar) How Long You Been Practising The Art: We're supposed to practice? View my Threads in Some Details: »	To his credit, he is not simply exposing secrets to the "Magi-curious". Also, he is one of the few outlets for independently selling effects for which you DO hold rightful claim of authorship/copyright/trademark. Seems like many peeps are so overjoyed with the notion that they have created the wheel that they fail to do their due diligence. "I made this" seems to trump need to find out if, in fact, someone had made it previously. Slydini did his "Untying Silks" with white silks. Doing the same effect with red silks does not give you any claim to having created it, or for having created a "new" effect. __________________

05-15-2009, 04:12 AM	#13
crazzzy Respected MPT Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 565 Chats: 65 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews Prefered Magic & Style: Close up How Long You Been Practising The Art: 4 years Who Inspired You To Learn Magic: Darwin Ortiz, Paul wilson Whats Your Work Horse Affect: ACR Whats Your Personal Favourite Affect: all FASDIU View my Threads in Some Details: »	I think if he has author rights its ilegal to sell the same method without his aproval, even if you have independantly came up with the method is he published it first you have no right to publish yours !

05-19-2009, 04:14 AM	#16
crazzzy Respected MPT Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 565 Chats: 65 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTW/F/M Award(s): 0 Feedback Score: 0 reviews Prefered Magic & Style: Close up How Long You Been Practising The Art: 4 years Who Inspired You To Learn Magic: Darwin Ortiz, Paul wilson Whats Your Work Horse Affect: ACR Whats Your Personal Favourite Affect: all FASDIU View my Threads in Some Details: »	I just hate people like that, for them its all about making money :@ and I think he isnt correct about that magic has no copyright I think you can get author rights but Im not 100 % about that

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